Assistive Technology and Everyday Independence with Jule Ann Lieberman

Luisa Recchia: [00:00:00] Welcome to Through Our Eyes, the podcast where we explore the lived experiences, innovations, and real stories shaping the blind and low vision community. Today’s episode is a powerful blend of professional expertise and personal insight. Our guest Jule Ann earned her master of Science in Low Vision Therapy from Salus University and holds dual certification through A-C-B-R-E-P as a low vision therapist and assistive technology instructional specialist.

She currently works as an assistive technology specialist for the blind and low vision at TechOWL, where she provides information demonstrations and public awareness about the technologies that are changing lives. She also serves as adjunct faculty at Salus University and has presented nationally at conferences such as A TIA and csun.

Today we are also joined by Wallace Stuckey, a member of our [00:01:00] Family Advisor Committee at the Pediatric Retinal Research Foundation, who is joining us from London as he studies for his master’s program. Wallace will be our guest interviewing our wonderful Jule Ann. Today we’re gonna talk about what adjustment really means, how assistive technology empowers independence, and what both families and professionals need to better understand about vision loss. Take it away, Wallace.

Wallace Stuckey: So Jule Ann, I think it is quite a really interesting career you’ve had in working with, uh, all sorts of folks with visual impairments and assist technology. I guess a good place to start would be what kind of got you into it?

Jule Ann Lieberman: Well, that, that’s, it’s an interesting question because someone else just asked me that recently, and it brought back memories. When I was a stay at home mom for a while, I have three children. Uh, they’re all adults now. In fact, I mentioned I’m also a grandmother of a [00:02:00] 1-year-old.

But at the time this is going back gosh several years, uh, my daughter was at that point a. First grader and, uh, my son was a middle schooler, my oldest son was a middle schooler. And of course, you know, a frantic every Sunday night, you know, the next day school you try to get everything ready for the kid helping get ready to get, make sure they’ve got their homework done.

And my, uh, this was Sunday night and my son says to me, mom, I, I need an article about the environment. And I went it’s Sunday. I don’t have magazines. Unless we, look through the new newspaper. I don’t know how to, how we could get something. And then I said, you know, why don’t you try that internet thing?

And again, this is going back by the way, my son is a full adult at this point. And I said, I know we have that computer. Why don’t you try the internet? So needless to say, I got busy with the other two children getting them ready for bed, and I [00:03:00] caught up with my son and I said, oh, hey, you know, hey Jared, where did you find anything?

He goes, oh yeah. And I said, oh, he goes, yeah, it was about an article of an issue in, uh, one of the counties that surround us the Bucks County, Pennsylvania. I went, oh, really? That, that’s really interesting. Not only was it an environmental article, but it was an article, something of local interest. And I said, how long did it take you to find that?

I dunno, 10 minutes. I said it would take us longer to get to the library than it would be to, to get that, find that material. So I thought, wow, access to information could be so quick and, you know, easily obtained. Um, and then at the same next day, my daughter come, came home from school and she said, mom, I wanna play my 101 Dalmatians game on the computer.

But, okay, so we had a, um, uh, an Apple computer at the time, uh, and I said, I pushed the, uh, CD ROM drive and I said, here’s the cd. I said, this is about as far as I can go with [00:04:00] this. And she put this, she goes, that’s okay, mom. She puts the CD in and there she is in like two seconds playing. And I said, okay, now I know I have both very bright children, but she’s six.

She’s operating this computer. How hard is this? Now, granted, I couldn’t see anything on the screen. So. I said, well, I, you know, I wanna learn more about this. And at the same time, again, my children were getting older, so I thought maybe time to go think about going back into the workforce. Growing up, that was always a, a goal of mine to be somewhat independent with my own finances.

And so getting back to work was important to me, and I realized that computers were definitely part of the workplace. And so I looked into getting a, uh, course in assistive technology that was at one of the local associations for the blind. And so I ended up going, uh, and it was a 10 week course five days a week from nine to three.

It was, [00:05:00] I really enjoyed it. And a couple months after I took the course, I get a phone call from that particular agency and they said, we want you to talk to you about a job. I went, okay. I thought maybe they just need some, you know. Clerical work around the office or something. And I went in for the interview and, and you know, it was a nice interview, but finally they said, do you have any questions?

I said, yeah, what job are you talking about? You haven’t told me what the job is. Oh, we want you to teach, teach what the class you just took. So needless to say, I, I kind of throw into assistive technology, uh, by sort of accident. I’ve always been someone interested in again you know, any kind of, uh, good tools and gadgets as I like to say.

So for me it was, you know, a natural and even though I said I, I’m not a teacher, the visually impaired, I never had any good experience on that. They said, yeah, but this particular program, you really don’t need that. So that started the whole interest. And then I, you know, I built [00:06:00] on that over the years.

I even had my own nonprofit for a while, uh, where I would do consultation. Then one of the universities here in the greater Philadelphia area. It was originally the Pennsylvania College of Optometry. Uh, then it became Sal University, and now it is Blindness and Vision Studies at Drexel University.

They merged last year, uh, last July, and they, uh, a lot since I am a low vision person myself, I knew a fair amount of the professionals in the field and as a patient, and so they kept recruiting me to just take their classes. Uh, so I, I entered graduate school at the ripe old age of 52 and graduated in 2013 with a low vision therapy, uh, master’s.

And then I continued on since this was my area, I love technology. I ended up getting the job at Temple University. And as they were looking for somebody that had a skillset [00:07:00] that was different than what was already on staff, they had speech and language pathologists. They at that time did not have occupational therapist we do now.

Uh, and so they thought, oh, this might be a good addition. Uh, so I advised all the agencies that we work with we have resource centers across the state eight, uh, altogether. And so I’ll advise that a lot on the vision technology. And I also you know, provide direct client services as well. And in 20, uh, 20, 21.

I was contacted by again, it was Salus University at that time, and they said they wanted somebody to teach an intro to Assistive Technology course for those professionals in the curriculum that were studying as a teacher of the visually impaired or vision rehabilitation therapist or vision therapist.

And I thought, okay, why not? Uh, as I like to say, I have one and a half jobs, so I’m full-time at Temple University and I’m adjunct faculty at, um, now [00:08:00] Drexel, uh, university. Uh, and I really enjoy teaching. I enjoyed it when I taught the class on computer technology way back when, uh, for, uh, the blind and low vision and, uh, but teaching the, preparing the professionals that ultimately are gonna be working with individuals long after I retire.

I, I really find that fulfilling. To work with the individuals that are heading into this field. So I’m hoping to make ISA great assisted technology geeks outta these individuals. I have some success with us, but generally speaking again, it’s a, right now, uh, it is a, a three credit course, so it’s a, a fair amount of work, especially starting in the spring.

But I do enjoy it. So sometimes when the end, they say, uh, the job that you love is a job that you’re really not working. So when I did say that I do love teaching, that is true. Um, and so that’s kind of my story in a nutshell. [00:09:00]

Wallace Stuckey: A

Jule Ann Lieberman: lot of nuts.

Wallace Stuckey: Well, I’m picking up That’s great though, but I’m picking up on a little bit of a trend that, multiple jobs that you’ve done came into being because people around you. Recognize your skills and it’s a great position to be in where mm-hmm. They’re calling you to ask about, uh, of a position or in fact like your, your teaching role now. Uh, it was a, it was a position which you got to have some role in creating and, and developing that course.

So, yeah. Um, that’s really neat. And I definitely also relate to, as a current master’s student. There you go. You never stop, have to, uh, having to find articles on a Sunday evening.

Jule Ann Lieberman: Oh yeah.

Wallace Stuckey: No matter what level you’re at.

What about a little bit of, uh, one of your different roles, uh, because you, you work with students in terms you in your faculty roles, uh, but also with kind of clients of all ages, right?

With the Tech Owl [00:10:00] Program, Pennsylvania. What, uh, maybe you could take it from this angle, um, in terms of te technology in that program, what’s kind of the, the hot topic right now? What is, what is, what are people really going for? What, what’s new and what’s exciting?

Jule Ann Lieberman: Smart glasses. Two words Meta, uh, the Meta glasses any of the, the wearables that provide instant recognition.

And that is the number one topic that I’ll get. In fact, I met with the local over, uh, office of Vocation Rehabilitation, came for a visit yesterday and I met with them. And what was the first thing they asked? How much do you know about these Meta glasses and how much do you know about what are the other alternatives?

Because they have to look at, from, obviously a fiscal standpoint, what can they purchase? They said so many, now they’ve got approval that they can provide medical classes in their older blind program, not just in the, uh, [00:11:00] vocational rehabilitation program. So I, you know, again, that was interesting. So I told them that I prepared uh.

Conference presentation at the Assistive Technology Industry Association, um, which was held at the, uh, last couple days of January in Orlando. And I was planning on being there. Uh, and unfortunately, uh, mother Nature and American Airlines prohibited that ’cause that kept canceling my flight. And so I couldn’t, I couldn’t get down there to present in person, but I am gonna be doing a recording.

And they’re gonna upload it at their website so that people can, view the topic because they agreed that’s a topic that as at professionals they get a lot of questions about, especially from the blindness and low vision community. So if you’re gonna talk about one thing that seems to be a hot topic, especially with the older adults that might be a little bit of tech savvy, they wanna know about the smart glasses.

Can it do something? And I, I, I believe you can share [00:12:00] this experience, waiting to have someone help you with something is really kind of frustrating. I, you know, again, what is this? The major question, what is this I’m looking at right now? That kind of information, if you can get that information quickly from smart glasses rather than waiting till, uh, again, again, your spouse or your family member or your friend shows up to tell you what this is to me, uh, it’s a monumental jump.

In technology. And, but I always laugh and say it is still artificial intelligence. And even though those databases are getting very good they’re not perfect, and you will get some hallucinations. So you’ll get some things that aren’t quite what they’re supposed to be. So then you get them to try again, and a lot of times you get a better result.

So I always tell them it’s not perfect. It is not the answer to all your task needs, but it is a help. And so I, I reviewed the Meta glasses of the envision [00:13:00] AI glasses. I have the full version, not the ally version, which is the newer one out. And also the I’m just starting to experiment with the Echo Vision glasses.

Uh, I am what they call a pioneer. I have their, almost their, uh. You know, the beta product right now and myself and several other people, uh, are participating in trying this out. So I’m doing a, a broad comparison of at least those three type of smart glasses devices. And they are, uh, again seems to be the number one question, especially of the adult and older adult population.

Um, kids, as you probably can guess, sometimes they’re reluctant, uh, to try something that. Is different than their peers. So a lot of times when I’m working with a family that has, um, a, a child with low vision, uh, especially, they don’t wanna look different. And so using some of these technology devices [00:14:00] especially if it’s a later onset a diagnosis, say middle school or high school, that’s when your own personal identity gets to be in conflict with what your reality is.

It’s, it seems to be more advantageous to introduce the technology, any technology when they’re younger. ’cause then they think it’s cool okay, that they get to do something, uh, on a device. Uh. The fact that so many mainstream devices, as I said, with the glasses and iPads and iPhones have so many accessible features on there and apps that you can use.

It’s not all that much different than their peers are using. So it’s bridging that identity gap. Um, but there’s still some reluctance. Uh, had a student come in as a temple student now, and you know, he had a low vision ev evaluation and they recommended some devices for you, uh, in a classroom. And I asked him, you know, he said, no, I’m not [00:15:00] interested you.

Okay. So we had to come up with an accommodation that he was using in high school, which I thought was really a, kind of a unique approach, uh, that during the classroom time, he would have the instructor set up a zoom, uh, link. Then he would just enlarge it on his laptop. So in other words, to follow the presentation using the distance camera, I thought that was really fascinating that he, that was the compromise, not the choice I would’ve made, but he said, no, I don’t wanna look like, I don’t, I want to look like everybody else with my laptop in the classroom.

Oh,

Wallace Stuckey: well that’s what I did. Mm-hmm. When I was in middle school and high school, it, we did it through screen sharing.

Jule Ann Lieberman: Sure.

Wallace Stuckey: Uh, so it was on the iPad.

Jule Ann Lieberman: Yeah.

Wallace Stuckey: And also iPads were a, a, a key part of too, because I started using one as a. Assistive technology tool,

Jule Ann Lieberman: Uhhuh

Wallace Stuckey: in sixth grade. And then when I moved to seventh [00:16:00] grade, the school announced were trialing iPads for the seventh graders.

I mean, I never got the official, uh, credit that, uh, I started to trend. It worked well, but no complaints about that. Uh, and that they rolled it out to the middle school when I was in eighth grade. So, um,

Jule Ann Lieberman: well, you, well, what’s funny about that, Wallace, is that, uh, not to interrupt you, but what you’re saying is, what I often tell people is that sometimes that a, uh, a, a technique or a device that was created for a certain population in this case, blindness and low vision, ends up being used wide.

By the general pop, you know, population. So I always use the example, the audio books how many people are listening to Audible right now? I mean, come on. And yet talking books were created in World War ii for veterans returning from war. That, or, you know, lost their vision then and so that they could continue on in education.

Um, and so for me it’s like, wow, if something that started out maybe that was [00:17:00] dedicated for somebody, like in your case for your use as an assistive technology, it’s now it, everybody’s using it. You know, it’s, call it the wheelchair ramp effect. Uh, you know, the curb cuts and the, uh. You know, on our street corners now, uh, was created, originally designed for persons with wheelchair.

How many people with baby strollers and delivery people use ’em all the time. So it becomes universally accepted. Uh, so I’m, I’m glad to hear that, you know, you had that advantage of using that, uh, sixth grade and seventh grade. Hey, everybody’s using them, which is it’s a good experience,

Wallace Stuckey: right?

Well, the sloped edges, everyone would be thrown off. Yeah. If we didn’t have those.

Jule Ann Lieberman: Oh,

Wallace Stuckey: yeah. Just catch me by surprise when I, when I’m walking down the street

Jule Ann Lieberman: mm-hmm.

Wallace Stuckey: I, I don’t see them. Yeah. That’s, uh, all very good. Uh, what about, I mean, one more thing on the, the glasses though. Mm-hmm. Because I, I was just having this, uh, chat with a few friends of mine here in the program, and this, [00:18:00] the consensus on smart glasses for now, at least in, in, in the grad school cohort is that.

They’re okay. Mm-hmm. And if something’s okay, I’m not rushing out to buy it.

Jule Ann Lieberman: Oh yeah.

Wallace Stuckey: So what would you say is the best tool or approach for them? Where do you get the most benefit from them as someone with vision loss?

Jule Ann Lieberman: Again, I’m also an AT professional, so my first always response is, well, what is the task you’re trying to do?

What’s your interest level? What’s your skill level? You know, when you keep those three things in mind then yeah, if all you wanna do is be able to recognize the items in your kitchen cabinet, they’re great. They’re great for object re recognition. Okay. Are you looking for to, uh, read a novel with them?

That would be tedious. Okay. So there are other technologies that you might wanna use that would provide you with the same audio ability, but you don’t have to [00:19:00] scan in and take pictures of pages. Although I did see a demonstration of someone who was doing exactly that with the echo Vision glasses.

And I, I, sorry I’d rather listen to a book that’s been recorded rather than scanning it in. But again, as you know, not everything is available. So that would be a good alternative use for that. But generally speaking, you know, this spot reading I think identifying you know, objects in the environment, uh, I think to me is probably the biggest benefit of it.

Of using it at, pretty much at all ages. And again, I, I have not, I’m new to, uh, you know, all the chat bots right now, so I’m still in the, in the, I always say the. Tentative stages of asking Claude or asking ChatGPT to for information. ’cause I wanna make sure that I can trust the information.

So I’m still getting used to that. And, uh, so, who knows by next year, next [00:20:00] time, uh, if we ever talk again, I might be using, uh, AI while I’m talking to you. My

Wallace Stuckey: stance with the chat bots is that you must be like a lawyer questioning a witness. Yeah. And ask it a question you don’t already know the answer to.

Yeah. Um, because yeah sometimes it will get a few basic things, things wrong and it does bring into question

Jule Ann Lieberman: Yeah.

Wallace Stuckey: Using it for information, but there’s mm-hmm. Ways in which I love it. If I, if I ask it to reformat a document, I mean, that

Jule Ann Lieberman: oh yeah. Is a

Wallace Stuckey: great example of something that is very difficult to do visually, but you’re mm-hmm.

Working smarter, uh, or I should say very difficult to do non visually, but you’re working smarter, not harder by using the, uh, device,

Jule Ann Lieberman: right?

Wallace Stuckey: Mm-hmm. So that’s great. And I guess lastly on glasses, uh, the, the signs would be huge. Yeah. Use for me, because like today I was taking a few metro lines. I did a flight earlier today.

Okay. Uh, so going through multiple airports and the [00:21:00] signage, oh yeah. It’s really quickly, but, but when you’re not really looking for it, it’s hard to know where the signage is. And I would love it if there was a tool that would just as I walk by, announce signs. Even it’s not a hundred percent right in the middle of the frame of vision.

I think that would be so useful. So I’m very interested to see, I’m glad you’re trying multiple ’cause it’s gonna be really interesting how the market evolves. Oh yeah. And needed to be multiple competitors for that to, uh, happen

Jule Ann Lieberman: and also bring the price down. ’cause

Wallace Stuckey: yeah.

Jule Ann Lieberman: The first device that was of that ilk was the OrCam MyEye.

Um, and that was retailing for $5,900. They’re not producing them any longer from what I understand if you go to their website, you’re not gonna get information how to purchase it. So, okay. But you can still get them. Some, some people still have them in you know, some of the people that bought them, uh, as you know, low vision or you know, vision specialists.

They’ll, they may have them so that they can you know, [00:22:00] resell them, but they’re a little harder. And, you know, that’s the point I, I made, if that had limited functions, had some good functions, I thought the recognition was very good when it took a picture of of, you know, an article. It. Did the recognition quickly and very well, and they were pretty easy to use.

So, you know, I gave it all that, those good kudos, but I thought $5,900 for limited tasks. Whereas as the newer ones now have ways to connect with others. For example, um, Meta Now, uh, you can connect with Be My Eyes Agents. You can also connect with I believe Aira. It’s maybe a multi, uh, step to do that, but, you can have someone connect looking through the camera and to also give you that information when you’re at that airport. Okay? You’re you know, you turn in the direction where the sign probably is. Then they can tell you, you know, again. What the information on the, they [00:23:00] can read it to you live a real person.

So that’s the advantages of some of these kind of situations that you don’t have to wait to take a picture and then try and figure out. I, I always laugh and I, I call it the menu effect when you go to a restaurant and you do a, use a OCR to read the, um, menu. Okay. First off, the, it could be inaccurate anyway ’cause there’s a lot of images on some menus.

But also it’s like I don’t need to know everything. So having uh, someone who can see through the camera on these glasses is terrific. ’cause then I can say, Hey, okay, I’m in the mood for a sandwich. I want a hot sandwich, you know, and I can give them that information. Narrows it down

Wallace Stuckey: for you.

Jule Ann Lieberman: Yeah. It makes it so much more efficient to do that. And, you know, that’s good. Yeah. Those kind of, I think they’re. Daily living type of things That’s really helpful to use. But, you know, am I gonna have them write my term paper? No. Any in the chat box? No, thank [00:24:00] you. But getting research information, I saw a great webinar just using Claude and the screen reader jaws for Windows.

And I thought, oh, that was really neat how they organized all this information and provided them some links for, for further research. So it was, it was pretty effective. Use, uh, but again, not all of the chat bots are alike and some provide you more in-depth information and some provide you basically the, the cursory information.

And I use that as an example with de describing a scene, for example, or describing a photo built onto my iPhone already. I have the ability for the image that was sent by my daughter, uh, uh, with my, of my granddaughter to describe it to me, but, well, usually what it ends up saying is it’s a baby sitting in a chair.

Okay. Alright, that’s true. But what makes it that picture important to me is the fact that the baby is a chocolate cake smeared over her face. Mm-hmm. You know? So, [00:25:00] uh, it’s it’s still in its infancy, you know, machine learning. It’s still doesn’t have the emotional effect. That would be something that would be a response that would be related to an emotion.

It’s funny to see that, baby with chocolate icing all over her face. But you know, that it wouldn’t understand that from the standpoint now it’s coming. Which in some ways kinda scares me. Sure. Absolutely. It’s gonna take over. Yeah. They’re all gonna take over the world and make decisions for me.

I don’t think I like that. But again, it, it, it again is, it is a useful tool in, in many ways, uh, but there are some limitations. Yeah. That wasn’t a great information that babysitting in a chair.

Wallace Stuckey: Well, that’s what you learn when you are working on developing alternative text for images, for example, which is manually done, but that you have to include enough detail to convey what someone is going to see visually and what they’re gonna pick out without [00:26:00] absolute overloading the exactly the person with too much information that’s irrelevant to what the picture’s trying to get across.

Jule Ann Lieberman: Yeah. And I usually say, what’s, what’s the. What was the point? Why did you put this image here? Tell me why. I don’t need to know that she, that she’s wearing a pink blouse, if that’s not important, unless the pink blouse means something. You know, I always said tell what is the meaning of that image that you put in there?

So again, I I’m pretty dis definitive about alt text. And I always rewar warn people, please don’t rely on the autogenerated alt text because again, machine it’s really bad. Machine learning is still learning. I had an image in one of my presentations of what a bold lying tablet looks like.

Okay. Uh, ’cause I just, you know, a whole variety of different images in there. And when the automatic autogenerated alt text was read aloud to me by the screen reader, it said it was an air conditioner. And I went, what? An air conditioner. I [00:27:00] thought that’s a stretch. And then my daughter pointed out to me, well, mom, look at it.

It looks like that. It’s just lines. That would be almost like a vent. Oh, I guess you’re right. You know, I didn’t realize that it was paper, a paper tablet. So obviously I had to go in and edit the alt text in there in that regard. So again, it’s it’s artificial intelligence. It is artificial, it’s not, human intelligence.

We still are beating them. Even though we’re relying more and more on artificial intelligence, we’re still smarter than ai. I like to tell people that

Wallace Stuckey: we are, let’s enjoy it while we’ve got it. I actually think that that will be well we we’re the ones that have developed, uh, AI and mm-hmm. Will hopefully continue to shape it.

Yeah. Don’t want to let it run away from us.

For sure.

Jule Ann Lieberman: Yeah. So a little bit about my, my, my traveling to work. I do take the, oh yeah, let’s do that. Yeah, I do. I’d love to hear

Wallace Stuckey: about that.

Jule Ann Lieberman: I do take the regional rail [00:28:00] lines. He, this is my fourth guide dog that I use. And, um, I’ve been riding with him since last November.

Prior to that, uh, in my time at working at Temple, I had two other dogs that had retired. So we take the train every day. Fortunately there, there is a stop at Temple University right there on the regional line. So, uh, I, I just stay on one train. I don’t have to switch trains, which is a very nice you know, again, like you said at the airport, trying to get to the right gate, trying to find the right platform sometimes can be a struggle.

So for me, that’s very convenient. And I do have an about a four and a half block walk up to my office. Through the campus. So getting, you know, again, oriented to where I am at any point in time I have used some GPS apps, uh, talking GPS apps. And sometimes I just need to know where am I?

Uh, and I usually have a mental map that already, uh, but if you ask me on [00:29:00] any given day, what building is that, as I’m walking along, I don’t know unless I’ve had reason to be there, I have no idea what the building is. So

Wallace Stuckey: you don’t know what you

Jule Ann Lieberman: don’t know. That’s very

Wallace Stuckey: fair.

Jule Ann Lieberman: Yeah. But I love, also love when traveling get to finish this conversation when I was down in Philadelphia, uh, one day on a Saturday morning.

I’m there with my guide dog, and uh, this car pulls up close to me and rolls down the window. Can you tell me how to get to it was, they were getting to the Kimmel Center and which is, uh, the Academy of Music building. And, uh, I was, happened to be on 10th Street and I said, okay yeah, well we’re on 10th Street.

You where we’re, where Waldo Street travels West. So you wanna take this street here, make a right and you wanna travel down? I said essentially it’s it’s four and a half blocks really, because there’s a small street that’s is a, not a numbered street that comes in, intersects there, but you wanna get to Broad Street, which is, you’ll know when you’re [00:30:00] at Broad Street ’cause it’s broad and then give away.

It’s very wide. And I said, then you would make a left. And meanwhile the dr the other passenger, but she’s blind. But she’s blind, but she’s blind. And I. Yeah. But I know my way around it

Wallace Stuckey: means, you know, it better because you’ve committed it to memory. Yeah. Well people here, I mean, I take the train now.

Mm-hmm. Also every day to class. Um, I, I lived on campus in undergrad. Now I commute into grad school and Truist in London will ask me, oh yeah. You know, how do I get to Kensington? And I can’t actually tell them that on the underground because a lot of the network I, I just kind of know now. Yeah. And also the visual tip, all the lines sound different, or at least most of them do.

Oh, yes,

Jule Ann Lieberman: absolutely. Yeah. I, I spent a semester in London when an undergrad, uh, so I, so if you would tell me, yeah. I can tell you how to get to South Kensington. On the green line, so I, you know. Exactly. And you know, so you get used to this and you get, uh, I had a friend that I was traveling with that didn’t have any vision [00:31:00] problems, and one day she got lost and I said, how could you have gotten lost on the underground?

And, she totally took the wrong train. And I was like, okay, you didn’t notice that you were on the wrong, a wrong, level ’cause she ended up on the Piccadilly line. I was like, how did you get over there? It also

Wallace Stuckey: comes to South Kensington,

Jule Ann Lieberman: also the Piccadilly

Wallace Stuckey: line in

Jule Ann Lieberman: South Kenton. Yeah, yeah, that’s right.

District. So, yeah. So it, again, it’s just what you develop as skills as a person that you know has poor vision. Is that a, a lot of which is good memory. And also you know, alternative strategies when I, I’m very involved with the Pennsylvania Council of the Blind as well, which is an affiliate of the American Council of Blind.

And I’ve said so many times ’cause I head up the Vision loss resource team. Uh, and I’ve always said I learned more from blind people than I’ve learned in all my academic years. As far as how to live as a person with that vision loss. ’cause they’re, to me, persons that are blind or low vision are probably the, the greatest problem [00:32:00] solvers that we have.

So that’s why I’m glad you’re studying it, intelligence because clearly. You have to think outside the box. And so that’s what a person who’s blind or visually impaired does you know, for your, again, for your own survival. And, you have to be a creative problem solver. So I rely an awful lot if I like, okay, I’m encountering a situation, or I’ll bring up a subject, what would you do in this situation?

And it’s really fascinating to hear how some people have come up with their own unique solutions to it. And, you know, maybe that would be a prophy, maybe not. But I always find it that what I say, if you put a blind person on the team, you have someone who actually has, can think outside the box and come with rad problem solving.

You know, I always encourage the, in the employment industry to think about that, that, you know, don’t be afraid of hiring that blind person. If anything, they’re gonna be an asset. Especially if you’re working on any kind of development.

Wallace Stuckey: Well, that is what this semester [00:33:00] is really about, is we’ve gotten into the group presentation Yeah.

Section of grad school. And all three presentations are about proposing solutions to global conflicts. So, I, I’m hoping what you said there will come through. I think it will. Uh, but we’ll have to check in at the end of the semester. I’ll let you in. You can let me know. All I appreciate, I’ll let you know.

Okay, good. Sounds good.

Luisa Recchia: this has been so enlightening and interesting. Jule as a, educator for those that are listening that either just received a diagnosis on their mm-hmm.

Infant. Mm-hmm. What is assistive technology?

Jule Ann Lieberman: It is any product I can give you the, the legal definition, any product or um, a device that has been modified or created or modified for the use of a person to, uh, with a disability. So it can be anything. And I say that because when, uh, I deal with people with physical disabilities something as simple as having you [00:34:00] know, put a washcloth on a, around a toothbrush holder makes it easier for him to grip.

Guess what? That’s sort of technology. Okay. It’s an alternative, uh, use for something. So it can be an alternative, uh, use for a product. And that, uh, again, or it can be technology. Uh, again, this is the digital edge folks. Uh, I swear my granddaughter knows how to use the cell phone already.

And she’s only one, well, she knows how to, she knows how to hang up on Nana, which is funny. She likes to push that red button on the hang, the hang up the call, which I find it very amusing. And, but again, you know, since we are a digital age, to me at this point thinking back, ’cause I am six to eight years old, technology was, uh.

In the far horizon when I was in elementary school or uh, high school there were some, there was talking books and large print books that I used when I was in high school. I wasn’t diagnosed till I was, um, I guess I was [00:35:00] 12. But I didn’t start asking for help till I was in high school when again, content was more demanding to read.

So with that said it was, it was in its infancy, a lot of this, and so, you know, I, I happened to be very excited for, uh, the opportunities that students with vision loss have now. That didn’t exist when I was a kid uh, I think it’s. And again, if you introduce it early enough, it’s cool.

They’re the cool kid using the device a different way. So I, again, I think it’s a good time introducing it. Uh, I, we joke around and say, not too much screen time, thank you. If indeed this is the way they access information, then by all means let ’em have access. So it is a good time.

So, you know, rest assure parents that our goal as advocates for our children are to explain what this, the, as Wallace has done so well, to what your needs [00:36:00] are, uh, and be able to advocate for that. I say advocate, not demand. Uh, a reason why I say that is ’cause what, for example, at Temple University the Divi, the Disability Resource Centers is great.

Services is great but they can’t do everything like you did before. So you may have to learn a new skill in order to access the content, say, on the learning media platform, you know, canvas. With that said, there, it’s two ways. So you advocate for what you need and you also learn alternatives so that you can be flexible to meet their, uh, what they offer as well.

Luisa Recchia: That was wonderful. Thank you so much. What has vision loss unexpectedly given you?

Jule Ann Lieberman: one of my favorite stories is when I had my first guide dog, um. A great big black lab. And, um, my older son again, I don’t need to be picking on him ’cause he’s in the other room. He may not be happy, but he was 16 [00:37:00] and he was, he came home from school and he’s playing with my dog on the bed, rolling around, having a good time, tickling and all that stuff.

And, a little while later he goes, mom, I lost my wallet. Okay, so what does the blind person usually say? When was the last time you had it? That’s what most people should say. Uh, well, I had it when I came out. Oh, you had it when you came home. Okay. So it must be somewhere in this house. Well, I looked everywhere.

Okay. And so, again, always these questions always come up when like, you’re doing the dishes or cooking dinner. So I, I thought, okay, you were up. I said, what were you doing? And he goes, oh, you know, I was playing with, with granite on the bed. And I went, oh, okay. So I go upstairs and I literally. Uh, put my hand between the footboard of the bed and the mattress and pulled out his wallet.

So in some ways it makes us more resourceful. Okay. ’cause I thought, okay, putting together what he was doing [00:38:00] and what potentially that could have fallen in. Now it still means I do have struggle sometimes finding some things. I, in fact, I joke around saying, do you guys move things just to torture me?

I’m like, I put that there for a reason, is what I’ll say. You know, I need that. Don’t move it around. Especially things like my medication or something. Uh, you know, I keep it where it is. Thank you. So I can find it. You know, again, but most times I say as a person with, low vision you find sometimes you have some abilities that, uh, of thinking through things through instead of reacting.

Mm-hmm. So, uh, I think that helps me in some ways. With that whole problem solving, like as a good example of the following, the wa finding the wallet, I thought back, okay, what was he doing? Reached down and found it. It was a logical guess for me, uh, where it would be. Yeah. So yeah, in some ways that’s an advantage.

No, I always say to people that, you know, they’ll always say, oh, I guess your [00:39:00] hearing must be spectacular. Well, I’m 68. My hearing’s not as good as it used to be for one thing. But no, I listen carefully. So I’ll pick up things that others don’t pick up because I listen carefully. ’cause that is my again, my means now for accessing information.

You know, when, uh, sometimes when somebody’s talking really fast like I do in Philadelphia, I can pick it up or somebody else. What? Can you repeat that? So generally speaking, yes, I maybe in some way have an advantage ’cause I’ve had to become an auditory learner. I did start out as a visual learner.

Ironically. I started out in undergrad as an art major. Um. Uh, so didn’t, that didn’t work out so well. So I ended up deciding to go into something else. But with that said, you know, it did turn me into a person that had to use my hearing more effectively. And again, I pay attention to it. Not that I hear anything better.

I, if it did an audiogram on me, it’s about the average [00:40:00] audiogram for somebody who’s 68. It’s not nothing spectacular on that. Uh, but I can identify smells. Sometimes I obviously it’s not good when you have dogs. You, well, and maybe it is good that, and when you have dogs, but, you know, on the train, for example, in the morning uh, one day I was, I just couldn’t stop it.

I was like, oh, what is that perfume they’re wearing? What is that perfume they’re wearing? I can, I recognize it, but I don’t know the name of it. And it took me a while and then all of a sudden, oh yes, that is, you know, that smell. ’cause I remember it from, you know, uh, having. S smelled it before, you know, and someone told me what it was.

So again, sometimes it is you know, you do rely different on different skills. I tell people one of the ways I orient myself in a, in a neighborhood, uh, if I know there’s McDonald’s, I can find it because I could smell the french fries a mile away. I think. Likewise with d Dunkin Donuts, oh yeah, you wanna go to the corner where there’s Dunkin Donuts.

You can [00:41:00] tell it’s Dunkin Donuts. You can smell it, smell the donuts, ’cause people don’t pay attention to it. But those kind of things that, you know, I, you know, obviously, uh, over the years I’ve come accustomed to doing and, um, for me, I find using these alternative strategies and alternative sense is very helpful.

I don’t have the great sense of touch, so I don’t know Braille, um. Unfortunately, I was at the age when I was in school under, excuse me, back in elementary school. Oh, she’ll never lose all her vision. She’ll always be able to see whether we make it big enough. What crystal ball did they have? That was, it was inaccurate, but in fairness, they didn’t know as much about it as they do now.

And so learning it now with my age and I have some neuropathy not exactly a good option for me, I do try, but it, it’s not my sense that I rely on so sense of touch, not necessarily my go-to. But hearing and smell, you know? Yeah. That’s pretty and some vision that I have. I do rely on.

That’s why I wear partly, that’s [00:42:00] why I wear glasses. People will always know why, if you’re blind, why are you wearing glasses? Well, there’s two reasons why I do have some remaining functional vision. And I was my optic as a kid to begin with. Uh, that, having the prescription lenses correct, at least the refractive area, which is what they call, uh, I know your medical doctors will know, Hey, she knows what refraction is.

Yeah, I do know what that means. Um, so it, uh, it, it did, you know, I corrected the refractive error and then I had cataract surgery, and so I was all excited. Oh, I won’t have to wear glasses anymore. Low vision doctor says to me, and how many times have you scratched your corneas? Oh. Because I’ll hold things close to see it and I might not see something.

And so, yeah. I’ve scratched my cornea 14 times over my lifetime, so when people ask me why I wear glasses, it does correct a little bit of the, uh, the myopia that the cataracts didn’t correct. ’cause I was stigmatism. But it also protects, they’re cuter than goggles, is what I tell people. They’re cuter than goggles.

I’ll wear them the, the, [00:43:00] i, again, it adds a sense of looking like your peers. So I, again, I, I do take advantage of wearing the glasses for that reason, mostly outta protection. Woo.

Luisa Recchia: Before we close, just real quickly, uh, what book are you reading right now?

I know you love Crime podcasts and, oh, that

was

Wallace Stuckey: gonna be my question too.

Luisa Recchia: Yeah. Sorry. I stole it while

Jule Ann Lieberman: Starting with the pri podcast today, I listened to Barry Bones which is it is the guy who was the, uh, detective that solved the Golden State murder. He’s, uh, he and, uh, is co-hosted by a a.

Crime writer. And she also is a, a professor at, I think in Austin. I can’t remember what university. Anyway, so they, they go through a, a, a crime, uh, usually an historical crime and using, uh, new forensic methods how this crime could be solved. Okay. And it, uh, to me, it’s. Fascinating. And that, that’s why and I joke with my husband [00:44:00] saying, yes, I learned more ways to kill you and get away with it.

Listen to these and reading these crime books I just find it interesting ’cause I’m, again, going back to that whole problem solving. I, I, like to find out how, what the result would be. So, what was the last book? Well, one of the last books I really enjoyed was the book called, uh, that James Patterson wrote the, I thought it was James Patterson, or Grisham the Widow.

I really enjoyed that. And ’cause Oh yeah, it was it, oh wait a minute. I see I got my authors mixed up. That was Michael Connely. ’cause it was the Lincoln lawyer story lawyer story. So I, you know, I, I tried to mix them up with different authors. As you can tell, you know, some of my favorites are Michael Connely.

John Grisham. I mean, like, I’ll throw a Stephen King in there every once in a while too, just in case I wanna get creeped out or listen to one of those. But, uh, Patricia Cordal is probably one of my all-time favorites too. So she’s the a forensic anthropologist that solves crimes too. So you can tell there’s a theme in what I li [00:45:00] like to listen to, ’cause it’s a nice break for me.

But then I’ll go into a bi a biography too. Somebody that I’ve always been interested in learning about, uh, historical feature people to, so I think I’ve read a bunch about all the different presidents I’ve written read books about their life stories.

I mean, I, again, I, I like people, uh, even the bad ones. So I just say even the bad ones, I like, did that answer your question or did I scare you? I tell people that I guess I’m scary.

Luisa Recchia: No, I love it. I love it. Anything else? Wallace,

Jule Ann Lieberman: what’s your favorite podcast, Wallace? Come

Wallace Stuckey: on. I, that’s, so on podcasts actually interesting that we bring this up.

There, I, the Thomas Ian Trust, which I just reached out to

Jule Ann Lieberman: Uhhuh

Wallace Stuckey: about there a a vision related organization in the UK that helps to link visually impaired students with That’s great employment. And they do assistive [00:46:00] technology training and all the work’s really good. They have a podcast that they started.

In December last year, or maybe it was December, 2024, there are a couple episodes into it. They just started it. Mm-hmm. Called Through Our Eyes, which I think imitation is the finest form of flattery. Louisa Sure. And Angeline. And anyway, I just think it’s hilarious that it’s the same name.

Jule Ann Lieberman: Yeah.

Wallace Stuckey: Really. Um, yeah.

I also like hacks on tap

Jule Ann Lieberman: Okay.

Wallace Stuckey: With, uh, David Axelrod and Mike Murphy.

Jule Ann Lieberman: Uhhuh,

Wallace Stuckey: two hacks from both sides of politics.

Jule Ann Lieberman: Sure.

Wallace Stuckey: Uh, and all they have good insights, so,

Jule Ann Lieberman: yeah. Yeah.

Wallace Stuckey: Uh, I enjoy that.

Jule Ann Lieberman: Yeah. I think, uh, right now I started listening, uh, a podcast called Chameleon, and it’s really about people that are, I can’t come back at the crime, I guess. Fraud a lot of the stories are based on, you know, people they think they can get away with this kind of, crimes. And also one that’s called crime list is also another one. It’s stories [00:47:00] about criminals that wait a minute, really like the stupid criminal joke, you know, that’s pretty much that all about.

So again, it helps break up the exercises that when I’m on the treadmill I can’t listen to those and not have to pay attention to how long I’ve been on the, the treadmill, so. Mm-hmm. I do like that. So we could fly by. Yeah, it definitely, that’s would move out good. Uh, you know, it’s funny you mentioned the tech ones.

I was a big one for listening to all the tech ones too, but since I’ve been so involved in all this for so long now, I. Again, I don’t tend to listen to them anymore. Not that I can’t learn, I learn all different ways with about the assistive technology, but sometimes I, I get impatient, um, with some of the podcasts.

And that, you know, when they start talking about the technology, either it’s way geeky or so, not again, I’m under weld, under weld or overwhelmed, uh, when I listen to some of [00:48:00] ’em. So, again, I have not been listening to them as of late. But once in a while I will, I’ll tap into one of those.

I do it mostly for entertainment podcasts at this point.

Luisa Recchia: Jule Ann, thank you for sharing not only your expertise, but your heart and lived experience. Today’s conversation reminds us that adjustment is not about limitation. It’s about learning, adapting, and discovering new pathways to independence. Assistive technology isn’t just about devices, it’s about access.

Dignity, confidence and possibility. Thank you Wallace for joining us and doing a fabulous job, with your questions and interview with Jule Ann.

If this topic resonates with you, we invite you to join us in person at the Family Connection Conference on April 18th, 2026 at Oakland University in Michigan. This year’s focus is assistive technology, and we’ll be diving even deeper into the tools, [00:49:00] resources, and real life strategies that support individuals and families navigating vision loss.

You can learn more and register through the PRRF website. This will be a hybrid event, and we would love to see you there.

If you found this episode meaningful, please share it with a friend, educator, employer or family member who could benefit from understanding what’s possible. And as always, thank you for being a part of Through our eyes Where we elevate voices, expand, understanding, and continue learning together.

Until next time, this is your host Luisa Recchia, with Through Our Eyes Podcast.